M-100 Message Board
M-100 Message Board
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 M-100 Message Forum
 6.3
 K4B 050 Transmission
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 10

mpmorris

USA
1368 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  17:31:03  Show Profile  Visit mpmorris's Homepage  Reply with Quote
S0, again, as Albert posted:

"When we put this back together, we have to be sure that this part goes in the right way, otherwise there will be no reverse and no first gear..."

We, meaning they, installed the 'F' clutch reversed. I can turn it counter clockwise. I hope this is the last of the problems.
mpm
Go to Top of Page

Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  19:23:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Mike, now I have to know who it was that "rebuilt" this transmission.

This sort of stuff is SO typical, and obviously, so very maddening.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
Go to Top of Page

mpmorris

USA
1368 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  11:16:46  Show Profile  Visit mpmorris's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good Morning Chris.

I'd prefer not to mention who 'they' are as over the years all other o'hauls produced through their shop have had no significant problems. The short comings of one employee can harm the reputation of an otherwise excellent firm.
The owner of the company, a long time friend and work associate, has been extremely helpful during this ordeal. I had elected to 'sublet' this particular job due to time constraints and my inability to work on an involved task without interruption. A type 3 or 6/7 transmission is a bit more straight forward and requires less intimacy.
I will say though that I was pleased to find K2 clutch pack had the correct clearance (new clutches) although B3, B1 band should have been replaced for the long term as well as Ki clutches (now all replaced).
The drum set is back in the case so this morning I hope to reassemble the unit and get it back in the car.
Actually, I'm really enjoying this job as it is bringing back memories from the'70s and 80s when this was pretty common work for me.

mpm
Go to Top of Page

aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  14:14:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike,

Sorry for the late reply, I was out of the country.

The reaction valves are mainly for shifting back, when the K clutch releases and the brake band engages. The reaction valves "senses" when the drum stops turning. I will have a nice lecture on that at the next Lode Fest.
I feel your pain, regarding the one way clutch, although it is stated clearly in the manual on how to put this thing in.

I have worked on this transmission in the last weeks, here is some progress.


Preparing the case. I still have to remove the seal for the control shaft. I use a "blind hole" bearing puller, as shown here.





With a slide hammer you remove the seal easily.





Then we need to remove the two seals that seal the shafts of the B1 and B2 pistons. I only could find a tool used to remove rubber bearings out of axles. You can pull these seals with the washer that is behind it. Here the washer end. Be sure you use an extra washer as shown, otherwise you will bend the original washer.





Here the other side. Kind of ridiculous, but it works. All the black cylinders are just fillers...
The angle plates are actually vise protectors, they have a protective strip on the bottom, so we don't mark the aluminum housing.





Now the seals are removed. I also missed a plug (the hex bolt on the right) that needed plated.





Here the empty case from all sides.


















Now we move the new seals back in, first the washers:





And then the seal.





Next is the control handle for selecting gears. Bu sure you mount the ball end as shown, there are two plates with oval holes that the shaft goes through. Easy to miss when in the case. You should see this much thread sticking out of the nut.





Measure the clearance between the ratchet part and the pin, I think it should be 0.3 mm.





Here the complete setup. The bottom part will be used later for the locking pawl, position 'P'.





The reaction valves with tubes.





Here is how they slide in the housing. Be sure the holes line up. Also here a good view of the nut on the selector handle, plus you can see the locking clip on the ball joint.
I have not pushed the valve tubes in yet, since the plate I had made to do so did not line up. We can do this later.





Next is the brake band B3 piston, for the reverse brake band. Here all the parts that make up the piston. Top left 16 bell washers, that are stacked up and act like a spring. The rubber seals are lip seals.





Here is the way to put the lip seal on the piston, lip pointed up.









Same for the inner piston...










Building up the piston shaft. First a thrust washer:





Then the 16 bell washers. Here you can see how these act like a spring.





Actually after the thrust washer the inner piston gets mounted:





And then the bell washer spring.





Stick the inner piston in the outer one:





And mount the clip.





Then on the other side the cone shaped spring, with spring retainer:





And clip. This is the complete B3 piston assembly.





Now we get our transmission fasteners box out. Special here is the almost all fasteners in the transmission are 7mm, which is not a usual size. These are all cleaned and plated.





Piston B3 cover with gasket.





Now the piston assembly is moved into the housing, with some tranny grease. You don't need a special tool, just use your fingers to get the lip seal into the housing.





And the cover mounted, bolts torqued to 30Nm (I think, don't have the manual here).






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP

Edited by - paul-NL on 09/01/2017 09:48:59
Go to Top of Page

aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2010 :  14:59:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And we move on with the transmission.

We are going to assemble the main part of the transmission, and we start with brake band B2. I did not get these bands relined, these are in decent shape. I did check the metal for cracks. Here band B2.





And here the top of B2. You can see here that B2 is a double band, there are actually two loops. The other bands are single loops.





In the rear of the housing there are two studs, which prevent the band from moving side ways. You have to get B2 in before the gear train.





Here is B2 into the housing. Notice the function of the studs.





Now we move the gear train (assembled a few weeks ago) into the housing. Not easy, since it is heavy. Be sure that it does not come apart at the bearing plate. You can stick your hand through the bottom of the case in order to pick up the output shaft. The other hand lifts the input shaft.





While moving the gear train in...





Here you can see the train going in, B2 in place.





And here the gear train roughly in place. The bearing plate is not mounted yet.





The rear of the transmission case.





And the front...





Here you can see the bolts that mount the bearing plate to the case. Use a long 3/8 extension.





This is brake band B1. It is a single loop. It is different from B3, B1 as shown here has square grip areas, where the piston pin moves into.





B2 moved into the transmission.





These two special bolts hold both B2 and B3 into place.





Mounted into the case. Be sure not to forget an aluminum crush washer.





Here the other end of the bolts. The big one holds B2 into position, the small one B3.





The B3 band into the transmission.





Before we move in B3, we have to mount the lever that pushes B3 in. Here it is, with pin and a new O-ring for the pin.





The lever mounts like this, with the end touching the B3 piston rod, and the hole will have the pin the pushes into the band. The large pin on top is the pivot point for the lever.





The pivot pin moves completely into the housing. It has M6 thread to be able to pull it back out.





Here the end of the lever and the B3 piston rod.





There are 4 pins for the brake bands, and the adjustment bolt for B3. The two large pins are for the B3 brake band.





The adjustment bolt. Be sure to stick a pin in the hole before you put the bolt in, otherwise you will not get the pin in.





A good look at B3, with both pins, the actuation lever and the adjustment bolt.







1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Edited by - paul-NL on 08/31/2017 18:04:07
Go to Top of Page

mpmorris

USA
1368 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2010 :  11:49:06  Show Profile  Visit mpmorris's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good Morning Gentlemen.

Success -it is a great day! Trans is back in with excellent shift points and engagement. A little delay during kick down operation which should be correctable by a slight counter clockwise turn of the double-action solenoid control rod -electrical integrity/continuity has satisfactory values.

Thanks for this great(!) post. Between this post and the corresponding literature (Technical Data Passenger Cars, 1969 (Bible),and the Workshop Manual Passenger Cars as of 1959 Supplement, Assembly, Service & Repair, Automatic Transmissions, Book 3), it has made for an accurate diagnosis and repair. I had extreme confidence when fitting this transmission.

Thanks again, mpm

#5081




Go to Top of Page

aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  12:51:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great, Mike!

I still have a long way to go to get to Mike's situtation. But how does a mouse eat an elephant? Right, one bite at the time. So here another bite of my transmission project.

We are going to mount the pistons for the B1 and B2 brake bands. Here are all the parts needed for the piston housing, which also contains the vacuum logic, and the kickdown/idle logic.





The lever mounted that is turned by the double acting solenoid.





Here are the parts for the B2 second piston. Tha main piston can be pushed by this smaller piston, and uses the smaller spring.





We mount a new lip seal on the piston, lip towards the back. Also, a new O-ring is moounted on the cylinder, visible on top.





Now we push the piston into the cylinder bore. Use a small screw driver to push the lip seal into the groove. Of course there was a special tool for that, but it can be done easily without. Also, use some tranny grease.





On top of the piston we push the next part, the cylinder with the O-ring on the outside. A retaining clip goes into a groove and holds this part in place.





Now we push the pressure plate into the cylinder. This plate pushes against the small spring.





Next we take the new main seals, and chech the opening size. You can see the opening at 09:00 o'clock. Max size is 0.1mm, mine are around 0.07mm.





There are two pins for the connection between the bands and the reaction valves. These pins come in different lengths, and so you can set the band clearance. Long pin is for B1, and the short one for B2.





B2 pin into place.





The other side of B2 has some kind of fork, since it is a double loop band. The rod on piston B2 sticks into the other end of the fork. BTW, if you ever take the pistons out of a transmission, this fork will fall down...





Piston B2 almost into it's cylinder. Push the seal by hand, it takes some trying. Originally required another special MB tool.





And now the piston is in place.





The longer pin goes in between brake band B1 and its reaction valve.





Here both pistons mounted.





Now we put the springs into the housing. Large wire diameter large sping into B1, small wire diameter large spring into B2. The smaller spring goes into the second piston of B2.





Another view of the spring setup.





Another special MB tool is needed for compressing the springs before you mount the housing. Of course I don't have that tool, so we use a trick. We take the longest M7 bolts out of our parts box (these are also used in the transmission), and put them in the positions shown. Before we do that, we put a nut and a washer the whole way up these bolts. Luckely the thread also goes the whole length of the bolt.





Now mount the housing, start the long bolts into the case. The springs are not compressed yet.





Here a detail of the nuts. I just use the nuts on two bolts, on both ends of the housing. What you do now is turn the nuts clockwise, one turn at the time for each nut. This way you slowly compress the springs into the case. It takes a while, but it works.





Now we are almost done:





Another detail:





Then we put all the other normal length bolts in, fasten these and replace the long bolts with the normal ones.





The setup for the grooved roller bearing in the back of the case. Here you also set the clearance for the rear part of the gear train. The spring ring (top left) is put in the bearing groove, together with the thrust washer (top right). Then you measure the distance between the washer and the end of the bearing. There is a set value for this distance, and you make up the difference with the shims (far right). Mine exactly matched the original setup. See the manual for the procedure.





Now we mount the bearing on the shaft. First you knock the inner bearing race on the shaft, like you see here. I don't want to drive the bearing into the case by knocking on the inner race, so I need an adapter bushing for the outer case. Will have that made this week...






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP

Edited by - paul-NL on 09/01/2017 09:49:51
Go to Top of Page

Royboy

Germany
175 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  15:04:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Complements awesome thread! Great detail what more can one say.
Roy
Go to Top of Page

cyrus

India
4 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2014 :  13:18:28  Show Profile  Visit cyrus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi all,
I am a newbie from India and have been reading this fantastically detailed thread on the MB 4 speed Transmission in the hope that it will shed some light on the problem(s) I am having with the Transmission of a 1962 220 SEb C.
The transmission will only shift into 3rd gear at 60 Kmph and about 4500 RPM instead of the required shift at 2800 RPM. Once 3rd is engaged, it goes into 4th smoothly and even with the revs drop to 3000 RPM it holds in 4th gear.
Also, no matter what setting I do to the rod between the Modulator and the 3 way solenoid, the shift from 1st to 2nd is pretty rough.
On going through the manual and performing various tests, I have found that the Pressure at the Modulator test point without vacuum, is very high in the minimum range at 3.1 kg/cm2 instead of the required 1 Kg/cm2 and at Medium it is 3.8 instead of the required 2.9. The high kickdown pressure is 4.9 instead of 4.8 which I suppose would be acceptable.
I am a little cofused on how to check the stepped pressure.There is no pressure at idle and the gear in park or 4. When the engine is at 2000RPM in 4 it reads 2.5kg/cm2. Is that ok?
The secondary pump reads a pressure of 2 kg @1000RPM, 7.5kg @2000RPM but drops to 6kg @3000 RPM. Is that ok?
There is no slippage in any gear and reverse is no problem.
The car had been unused for many years and there waer signs of oil leakages around the transmission so I opened the transmission primarily to change the oil seals and check the bearings.
I did not touch the valve body as I was unable to get a packing for it here.
I opened the governor at the rear and cleaned it up, I even tried increasing/decreasing pressure on the 2 regulatory valves but it made no difference. Driving the car with the solenoid connected or not again makes no difference. The vacuum to the modulator is 14 at idle, but does not decrease when the engine is revved. Driving the car with or without the vacuum connected again makes no difference.
I hope you guys can put me on the right track to solving this problem. If there are any other test results required, let me know. I really am looking forward to what you all have to say.
Thanks,
Cyrus.
Go to Top of Page

cyrus

India
4 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  03:18:38  Show Profile  Visit cyrus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello again,
Is this an old locked out topic that everyone has unsubscribed from?
Please advice. I could really do with some advice from the group regarding my earlier post, specially from 'Aplekker' and gang who have gone through the transmission in such great detail.
Thanks,
Cyrus
Go to Top of Page

Art Love

Australia
6237 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  18:07:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The topic certainly is not locked. The problem is probably that very few here know the answers to your questions, despite knowing a lot on other topics.
Art
Go to Top of Page

cyrus

India
4 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2014 :  08:06:51  Show Profile  Visit cyrus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello,
I have managed to resolve the issue and have the car now changing into all gears very smoothly and at the right RPM for the various gears.
The problem was in the modulator. While one end of the activating rod was connected via the adjusting rod to the 3 way solenoid, the other end was not engaging the piston but only the outer sleeve of the piston in the center of the modulator. Fitting it correctly is quite a tricky job. I should have tested this before fitting the outer cover by moving the lever manually and seeing that the piston was moving along with it but was was unaware that there was a chance that the locating pin was not engaging the piston.
Thanks due to the detailed pictures and descriptions on this thread, specially Aplekker, that let me study the components in detail, figure out their working and find the fault.
Cyrus.
Go to Top of Page

bigrich406

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2015 :  19:05:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a drip coming from the outer cover of my vacuum modulator. There is no gasket for this on the fiche. I am assuming no fluid is supposed to be in this chamber and the inner oil seal is leaking and needs to be replaced.

Can this be done with the transmission in the car?

1969 300SEL 6.3
1971 300SEL 6.3
1987 Porsche 930
1997 Porsche 993TT
2002 Porsche GT2
2008 Porsche GT2
Go to Top of Page

mpmorris

USA
1368 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2015 :  10:13:16  Show Profile  Visit mpmorris's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Rich --yes it can be done with transmission in place and you will not disturb any adjustments. There are three o-ring seals to replace to seal the shaft and the hard plastic intermediate plate: 2 for both sides of the plate to aluminum and one inside the plate for the shaft)
Go to Top of Page

paul-NL

Netherlands
4288 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2017 :  18:51:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am trying to restore those pages, because the essential pictures are blocked by photobucket.

I try to upload the Original pictures from Albert , so this valuable thread regains its value for all.

So be not surprised that most postings will be " edited " by me

I hope this all will have succes ..... ???


Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 20:30:46
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 10 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
M-100 Message Board © 2002-2015 International M-100 Group, Inc. Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.43 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.06