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 K4B 050 Transmission
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  14:42:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
These little books are truly invaluable.

The english name on these books is "Technical Data Passenger Cars", and there are Editions for every three years, i.e. 1963, 1966, 1969, 1972, etc. I strongly recommend that anybody that doesn't have them should buy the ones that apply to their particular car.

The only thing you still won't know after reading these is the appropriate spark plug gap and the recommended oil type.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

Edited by - Chris Johnson on 03/25/2009 14:43:38
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  15:27:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After all the confusion about the gear ratio's is gone, I will post some pics of the tear down of the transmission.

Here is were we left of, the front of the transmission with the pump removed. You can see brake band B3 (reverse).





Brake band B3 ready to come out.





This is brake band B1, which can be removed with the gear set in, after removing two bolts on the top of the transmission.





Now we can remove the gear set, after taking out four bolts that hold the bearing support in place.





The manual wants you to pull the grooved ball bearing with a special puller that no one has. Since I will replace it any way, I use a rubber hammer and tap on the output shaft, taking the bearing with the gear set. Here it is:





This is the housing with brake band B2 still in place. B2 can only be removed and installed with the gear set out.





Here the complete gear set. You see on the left drum B3, for the reverse. This drum also holds clutch K1. The next section is drum B1, which also holds both the front and the central planetary gear sets. On the right (after the bearing support) is drum B2, which holds clutch K2, the rear planetary gear set and free wheeling clutch F.





Split of drum B3 and B1. On the left B3 and the guts of B1, on the right B1. Out of B3 the hollow shaft for reverse that is connected to free wheeling F. Out of B1 the intermediate shaft.





Drum B1, with the sun gear S2 from the central planetary set. Sticking out is the intermediate shaft.





The planet gears of the central planetary shaft. Here you also see the fact that there are 6 planet gears, specially for the K4B 050 transmission. All other transmissions have only three planet gears. This is for the massive torque of the M100 engines. Also the hollow shaft that is connected to these planet gears.





In order to separate the B3 drum and the central/front gear set you have to get to a lock that is hard to get to. With a small screw driver you have to get to this clip.





Left the carrier for the front/central gear sets, right the B3 drum with clutch K1 and sun gear S1. This sun gear is connected to the input shaft.





Here drum B3, clutch plates, sun gear S1.





Here the planet gears P1 of the front planetary set. You can see that this set is connected to drum B3 through the large toothed ring. It is also connected to the outer gear O2 of the central set and to the intermediate shaft (spline in the middle).





The clutch plates out of clutch K1.





Drum B3, and the input shaft. You see the toothed area on the bottom, which is the inner clutch teeth. Under there, invisible, is the sun gear S1. In the drum you see the springs for clutch K1 and the piston that moves the clutch plates.





Now the planet carrier from the front gear set is removed (left), and you see the outer gear O1. To get this apart you have to remove the lock you see around O1. It is secured by a wire, that is EXTREMELY hard to get out.





Here O1, separated from the rest.






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/31/2017 16:44:53
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  15:49:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just got an email from Paul that the "Tabellenbuchen" are still available.

And just ordered three of them, from MB USA.

1 Edition 1969: Passenger Cars (Reproduction) $59.99 $59.99
QL-6510-1261-02
1 Edition 1977: Passenger Cars from 01/ 1977 to 12 $49.99 $49.99
QL-6510-1268-02
1 Edition 1988: Passenger cars model years 1985 to $39.99 $39.99
QL-6510-1277-02

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP
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paul-NL

Netherlands
4288 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  18:29:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@ Kari,

First question : do you know when the last change of the oilfilter has been done. MB advises the change every 45000 km. A clogged filter can make difference in shiftingbehaviour.

Until may 1969 the Coupe had the automatic gearbox K4A 025 and from then on the K4C 025.
Those gearboxes have a different feeling in shiftsmoothness, which depends =as we just discovered= on the method of using those brakebands and clutches together inside for each gear. The newer method is first used on the 600 in 1963 and brought progress.

Your's should be the first mentioned type and the later used is the second type. That earlier automatic gearbox has a reputation that it can harder shift as the later ones.

Since our cars are developed for mineral oils, I never use synthetic oils. The right type is =as I remember right= mentioned in the endsection of the Car-manual. It is normal red ATF. I last bought a 5 Liter canister normal red ATF in a supplier for motorboots (for recreation). Also often used and available by suppliers/discount for farmers.



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karra

Finland
866 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2009 :  14:26:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

@ Kari,

First question : do you know when the last change of the oilfilter has been done. MB advises the change every 45000 km. A clogged filter can make difference in shiftingbehaviour.

Since our cars are developed for mineral oils, I never use synthetic oils. The right type is =as I remember right= mentioned in the endsection of the Car-manual. It is normal red ATF. I last bought a 5 Liter canister normal red ATF in a supplier for motorboots (for recreation). Also often used and available by suppliers/discount for farmers.

Hi Paul,

my coupe went through a partial restoration and a complete service in 1998 in LA and was imported to Finland in 1999. I bought it in 2004 and probably it had been driven less than 5000 km when I got it. I tried to get the transmission working better with this Valvoline Max Life oil, and because it did not help I tried the fully synthetic one (I suspected the heat causing the problem). Anyhow the problem is not too irritating, I can live with that.

Today I bought Gulf ATF Dexron III for the 6.3 transmission and for the engine I got Gulf SL 20W-50 mineral oil with zinc additive for improved camshaft lubrication.

Kari Pykäläinen

1971 6.3 #5581
1968 280 SE Coupé
1993 E420
1995 Tahoe 350cid
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2009 :  18:59:36  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That gulf oil sounds exactly right.Do know if it has the rating on the container (zinc level etc ) ?.
I would very much like to buy it here in OZ or it's equivelent. Even though the oil companies are saying there modern oils are as good as the older zinc rich types i am not willing to wear out cams for the sake of some politicians CO reduction policy.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 20:40:42
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flinfosys

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2009 :  00:10:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi All,

We have re-assembled the K4B050 transmission with the dumbbell valves that are illustrated in Albert's photos. The mystery valve (#29) in the lower valve body, was re-assembled according to Albert's digital photo, stem facing down towards the filter.

The transmission shifts into gear no problem at 'D' and the car takes off from a standing start with no problem however when accelerating quickly in second gear, the engine rumbles almost like it was misfiring and the transmission shifts into third and then fourth gear very quickly.

There is also no downshift when flooring the car in third gear at a lower speed...say forty mph. The solenoid does operate properly at it's three positions.

When shifted into '1' the transmission slips badly, if the gas is let off (ie. power reduced), it will shift into second gear with no problem and then into third and so on.

We made sure that the electric switch for the vacuum on the manifold near the air filter was good and properly connected...

We are thinking that the modulator valve and associated stem are not correct because the minimum pressure we get from the transmission is 2.6 bars of pressure, not the .6 to 1.4 as stated in the front of the
supplement 5 manual.

Does anyone else have any ideas regarding this? There are only two exterior adjustments for this transmission, 1) the rod connecting the solenoid to the modulator arm and 2) the modulator adjustment screw (with locking nut) itself.

All parts in the valve body are correct, they have been double checked...
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2009 :  16:47:01  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Make sure you have no vacuum leaks on the engine,the 6.3 has a pretty big suck and the vacuum signal to the trans is big. If there is a leaking intake pipe connection etc the signal will be less than required and the modulator will get the wrong signal etc.
Have you adjusted the solenoid rod length to reduce the modulator pressure? In the manual it has the initial length to work with and each adjustment is just 1/8th of a turn . The ball ends need to free and lubed with no sign of extra play.
One very important point,are the electrical connections from the manifold switch to the trans correct and delivery full voltage ,with the manifold switch correctly adjusted?

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 20:41:09
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flinfosys

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2009 :  00:46:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Make sure you have no vacuum leaks on the engine,the 6.3 has a pretty big suck and the vacuum signal to the trans is big. If there is a leaking intake pipe connection etc the signal will be less than required and the modulator will get the wrong signal etc.
Have you adjusted the solenoid rod length to reduce the modulator pressure? In the manual it has the initial length to work with and each adjustment is just 1/8th of a turn . The ball ends need to free and lubed with no sign of extra play.
One very important point,are the electrical connections from the manifold switch to the trans correct and delivery full voltage ,with the manifold switch correctly adjusted?

Thanks for your reply! Some good thoughts...

There is lots of vacuum, even at idle. We do get lots of pressure in the modulator, too much I think.

A recheck of the solenoid rod length is in order but I think the modulator pressure is still too high even with the modulator control arm pushed all the way towards the rear of the transmission which is where it should be at idle with no pressure applied to the gas pedal.

The electrical connections from the manifold switch to the transmission have been checked and are correct, I'm not sure what the full voltage should be and I cannot find a reference to this switch in the manual, do you know the job number offhand? (27-?). The manual I have has jobs 27-0 through 27-9 and from 27-22 on forward. The supplement 5 manual I have lists jobs 27-10 through 27-18.

It seems I'm missing jobs 27-19 through 27-21 assuming they even exist.

I do not see an adjustment on the switch...

In the supplement 5 manual, more specs are listed in job 27-10. There is reference (27-10/1) to two(2) pressure pins for the modulating pressure transmitter, one with one notch (90mm), the other without (89mm). No mention of a third pin.

In the main manual containing most of the jobs, there is a reference to the same two pins and a third pin with two notches (91mm).

I suspect that these pins can be swapped to adjust the basic modulator pressure at the basic pressure setting of 0.6 +/- 0.05 kp/cm2.

There is also a reference in the supplement 5 manual, for pressure step adjustments (27-10/2) where three(3) compensating shims are referenced. These shims are to placed under pressure control valves and associated springs, either internally or externally. The problem is that I'm not sure which pressure control valves are being referenced...???? There is a letter U with an umlaut referenced so this is probably an abbreviation to a gear from the German manual.

If all else fails, I'm considering shortening the pressure pin to a length of 88 mm to see if that decreases the basic operating pressure at idle from 2.9 kp/cm2 to the factory spec of 0.6 +/- 0.05 kp/cm2.



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abl567

Australia
930 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2009 :  02:14:12  Show Profile  Visit abl567's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do not see an adjustment on the switch...

Hi, the switch is adjusted by undoing the allen head screws slightly and rotating the switch around its axis

There is a procedure in the service manual for setting it but I cannot look up the page right now

The switch on the throttle valve activates a relay the instant the throttle is opened, to adjust it loosen the 2 screws and with the ignition on set the switch so the relay clicks at the slightest movement of the throttle. This sets the tranny in a idle mode with no throttle pressure and activates full operation when you touch the throttle.
Another reason why fresh throttle linkages improves these cars

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2009 :  09:13:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do not make the mistake of changing the length of the pins on spec.

Proper troubleshooting discipline dictates remembering that the transmission operated previously with the pin that was already in it. If the pressure is off, it is because something else is wrong. Making a second thing wrong isn't going to correct the first.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2009 :  21:38:31  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It also sounds like the rod from the solenoid is too long. Try shortening it a 1/2 turn with the gauges connected. The valves mentioned are in the valve body itself, it should make note as to which ones they mean.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 20:41:31
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flinfosys

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  14:12:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi All,

Thank you for your answers...

1) abl567, you are correct, I thought perhaps there was an external adjusting screw that could be adjusted, the adjustment you are referring to is not obvious...

2) Chris, you are correct also, I thought the same thing, shortening the pin may cause further problems...

3) Ron B, would shortening the solenoid rod length decrease pressure? Is there a starting length for the rod going to the solenoid? I thought I saw mention of one in the manual but I can't seem to find the spec in job 27-0
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2009 :  16:54:00  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes,it should. High pressure like can only be a modulator issue unless the gasket between the valve body halves is leaking somewhere.
I havew a memory of the length being 160mm but I may be wrong there. try pushing the arm back to point where you can feel the modulator valve pushing .that should be your start point with the solenoid in the nuetral position. As the rod is increased the valve is opened further and this could possibly be where your problem lays at the moment.

The solenoid ,when the car is stopped with your foot off the pedal,moves forward releasing the fluid pressure in the trans so the fluid coupler isn't trying to drive the car.Place your foot on the pedal and it moves n the other direction increasing the pressure to the pistons to enable the bands to work.



quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 20:41:53
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wbain

USA
213 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2009 :  14:11:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Based on this thread, I've begun taking my trans apart for an inspection. I've got the front cover off, the first drum out and the band. I also took the pan off and there was some sort of sealant on it instead of a gasket. I suspect the trans is riddled with bits from it. The trans mount is toast. Now all I have to do is get the drive flange off.

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor
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