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 K4B 050 Transmission
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  17:16:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
True about the special tools, other than the socket for the nut in the three legged flange on the output shaft.

I also have the pressure gages you hook up to the tranny and hang in the car while you drive it. Very handy.



1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2009 :  12:22:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

After a lot of digging around, mainly in the online EPC, I found out what MB has available and lists as the proper setup of the K1 and K2 clutches. Since I subscribe to this EPC, I can access the info to all the MB products around the world, and by searching for part numbers you can get more info, like the thickness of the clutch plates.

Here we go: (referring to the pics on the first page of this thread)

K1: 6 1 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 2

K2: 6 3 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 7

where 6 is closest to the piston and the numbers refer to:

1: 109 272 15 26 2.0mm Outer Steel $9.00
2: 100 272 08 26 2.4mm Outer Steel $24.00
3: 109 272 08 26 3.5mm Outer Steel $16.50
4: 109 272 05 26 5.5mm Outer Steel $54.00
5: 112 272 02 25 Inner lined $13.88
6: 112 272 14 62 0.6mm Steel guard plate $7.31
7: 109 272 18 26 5.0mm Outer Steel $37.50

These should all be available from MB, and I ordered some more of the #6's in order to be able to adjust the clearance.

The brake bands are another story: we all know these are not available from MB, I have two companies that are saying these bands can be relined. We will see.

I also ordered the gasket kits, there are 4 per transmission. Also ordered the ball bearings, some clips and locks, etc.

Some special attention for the speedo meter cable attachment: this is an aluminum housing, and there is a 6mm bolt for clamping the speedo meter cable. This part is often cracked, since people try to tighten it too much. Of course mine was cracked, causing a slow but very irritating leak. Part # 112 270 01 13, for only $428.00.....




1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP
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cth350

USA
1525 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2009 :  10:35:47  Show Profile  Visit cth350's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That 112 part number implies that there are several used cores out there. Is it fixable via some tig welding? -cth
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2009 :  11:37:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cores? I have at least ten spare 300SE automatic transmissions. I'll have to pull one off and verify it really is the same part.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2009 :  13:21:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it is used on all 16 bolt pan transmissions, as far as I can see. But that is the MB list price, I was lucky and found one on EBay for a third of that (actually from Gary).

I am not an expert welder, but I think it would be impossible to weld. However, we have some good welders, I will ask them next week.

The main reason I mentioned this part is the leak problem. It is hard to see the crack.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2009 :  13:41:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I finally got to the clutch compressor issue. A new adapter ring was made, and it works. See the pictures below.

A word of caution: there are 24 springs in the K1 clutch, and these are a lot heavier that for instance the 722.3 clutch springs. They are also longer that the 722.3 springs. DO NOT use a cheap universal spring compressor, the force to compress the spring is tremendous and the distance to relieve the springs is larger.
Also, do not try to use a large vise or a drill press, you will take a large risk to get hurt.

The new adapter ring:





The K1 clutch as it comes out:





The K1 clutch with the tool mounted:





Setup before compression:





Setup after compression (notice the lock ring):





Lock ring removed:





Springs completely relieved (notice the LONG distance to go):





Tool removed:





Spring retainer plate removed. Notice how heavy these springs are:





1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Edited by - paul-NL on 09/01/2017 09:10:28
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2009 :  15:15:26  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi,I mentiojned before that the factory compressor is designed to be used in a hydrualic press...definitely a lot pressure! it has to withstand the m-100 torque

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 17:39:31
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2009 :  15:25:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here a short picture story on the main pump, the governor and both small pumps on the output shaft.

Took these apart today, since the rest of the transmission is apart anyway, and I do not want to take the risk of more surprises like the cracked bearing.

No big surprises, although I found a large clump of crud of the pressure control piston in the rear bearing cover. That does not make me feel good about the valve body and the governor itself.
The governor can be taked apart, but the covers 1-4 are locked into place. I could take these covers off, but am not sure if that is a good idea. Any one have any ideas on this?


Front cover with primary pump:





Sealing rings, these hook together:





Pump gears:





Rear bearing housing with the govenor on the right and both pumps on the left:





Governer with four numbered fly weight chambers:





Governer stepper pressure transmitter piston on the top and pressure control piston on bottom:





Look at the crud:





Secondary oil pump:





Governor oil pump:





All parts of both pumps. The governer oil pump gears have a larger relief on one side, that faces the pump housing.






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP



Edited by - paul-NL on 08/30/2017 09:04:03
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2009 :  00:40:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Today I took the valve body apart. The K4B 050 manual I have is an original German manual, chapter 27-18, and a copy of the corresponding English manual.
The valve body top and base came apart easily, and all parts are as in the manual.
However, what MB calls the "oil distribution plate", which is basically the part of the assembly you will see after removing the filter, has some differences.

Venting bushing 34b was completely stuck, after removing pin 34c. I finally got it to move, but cannot get it out of the bore. Right now it moves freely in the space that is allowed by the pin, so it should be OK. Any one with any ideas???

Then, venting valve K1 (27) is a completely different part from the picture, and spring 27a is missing.

Finally, venting valve K2 (28) is also different, and spring 28a and washer 28c are missing. Now both parts 27 and 28 are the same shape, and these are both clutch venting valves. Did MB make a change??? Anyone has any idea???

For any one interested how I did this job: I take the pistons and valves out according to the manual, lay them on a piece of paper in the exact way and orientation they came out, and then took close up pictures. Then I store all parts in a parts box, after writing down which is where. After cleaning everything I will put it back together.


The valve body base with range selecting valve on top:






The valve body base:






Valve body base one side:






Valve body base other side:






Valve body top one side:






Valve body top other side:






All stored:






Oil distribution plate one side: (see bottom different K1 venting valve)





Oil distribution plate other side: (see bottom different K2 venting valve)






manual pages:





manual pages:





manual pages:







1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/30/2017 11:43:17
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2009 :  16:59:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, since no one replied I decided to take the valve body off of one of my spare transmissions in order to find out what is going on with the different valve setup.
And guess what: they are exactly the same, so I assume MB made a change and never updated the manuals.

However, I have an issue, and I will have to get my (small) soapbox out. It really blows my mind that I have posted some questions in this thread (specially the last one about the valve body, and the one about the clutch issue) and no one comes up with anything. There have to be people around that read this bulletin board and that know the answers. Is it some kind of secret? In my opinion this bulletin board is there to expand all of our knowledge, and should serve as a deposit for all of our combined knowledge.
The professionals under us should have no fear about us taking their business, most people will leave that kind of work to them.
It took me 5 years to gather all the manuals that I have, some in horrible photo copy format. I also acquired some literature that was produced for inside MB use. But it is in all our best interest to share this info, and to put it on this bulletin board in order to preserve and spread it.

Am I off track here???

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP
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paul-NL

Netherlands
4288 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2009 :  18:02:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Albert,

I am sorry, but have no knowledge about transmissions ....
Can't help you.
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Art Love

Australia
6237 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2009 :  02:01:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jeeez Albert,

You are teaching me here. I've had at least 10 people try to explain to me how an automatic transmission works and I still haven't a clue. Those valve bodies always remind me of an old English maze. As soon as anybody starts to explain the mechanism, my mind goes into neutral, not the gearbox.
,
Art
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2009 :  17:42:19  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Albert,I looked at ones I have here and found the same thing,there was probably one of those sheets they sent out from Stuttgart every month to up date the manuals ( like microsofts update message) dircting the page be changed for a new one with updates. 27a is one that did cause a lot of problems with the trans in the W111 ,and i guess that a change has been made to the spacer plate (oil distribution plate) to try and overcome the stickiness .
Then again.someone may have forgotten to install the spring in the valve because it needs the spring to keep it closed.
With this in mind, the spring is a set length but again,this caused problems so it may be that the oil is being redirected in different modes to close the valve from behind hence the change in the plate. .
Looking at a valve body ,although they are complicated it's principle becomes easier to understand when it can be seen as the hydrualic brain. Apply higher pressure and different valves are forced open to to allow fluid to to force different brake pistons to work. Reduce pressure and the reverse happens. lower pressures close them and others still open allow other pistons to come into play.
In the meantine those higher pressures will also close the low pressure valves thus releasing their pistons.
So,if a valve is missing a washer or spring the pressure required isn't be raised to the correct level,it won't be allowing a piston to achieve full pressure and while it may work it could possibly allow slippage and that may be what caused the burnt drums in the trans.
Without looking up which piston the valve operates ( it's in the DB trans book mostly rather than the 6.3 supplement) i can only assume that that is what has happened.
Can you asee what is holding the other valve in the body? a bit of varnish possibly?


quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 17:32:29
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wbain

USA
213 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2009 :  07:59:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know how to make these transmissions start in first, besides kickdown and selector position 2?

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2009 :  11:05:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Warren,

I don't know any easy way to do that, but I'm curious as to why you would want to. These cars, including the M180, have plenty of power to get moving even on steep hills. The aggressive lurch going from 1st to 2nd would also be enough to make me want to avoid doing that on a regular basis.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org

Edited by - Chris Johnson on 03/13/2009 11:06:24
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