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 K4B 050 Transmission
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2009 :  12:10:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Since the transmission was out of my car, and it shifted rather harsh, I decided to take a good look at it.

First observation was leakage, mainly from the rear cover and the speedo meter cable mount. Also, I found out that the lever that is turned by the 2 way solenoid was frozen solid in the modulating pressure control housing.

I removed the housing, and also removed the brake band pistons B1 & B2 to check their sealing rings. This was a mistake, since I heard something falling down inside the transmission, which later turned out to be the pin between the piston and the brake band.
Then I decided to take the whole transmission apart, and completely reseal it.

Some interesting facts: this transmission must have been rebuilt sometime in the past, since 3 parts were missing: two wire locks that keep lock rings in place, and the lock ring for the output shaft connection to clutch K2.

Also, the bearing on the output shaft in the rear transmission housing turned out to be cracked.
My clutch spring compressor, which is designed for the 722.3 transmissions, is too small for the K1 and K2 clutch packs. I will have some rings made in order to use this compressor on these clutches.

Below some pictures. If there is any interest, I will put some photos up when this thing goes back together.

Here the complete gear train:



A close up of the gear train, see the burn marks from brake bands B1 & B2. B3 (left) has none, since it engages the reverse gears...



The cracked bearing on the output shaft...


Another look at the cracked bearing. See also the plate the connects into clutch K2, which was missing the lock ring...




Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2009 :  17:12:44  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Talking with someione recently,they said tyhat often you find those rings in the oil pan....That must have been a growly transmission with that busted bearing. When I see the scorch marks on the drums I could understand how someone has broken the bearing race. How are the linings?

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 17:28:33
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2009 :  17:32:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ron,

The linings seem OK to me, I will post some pics later tonight and maybe you can give your opinion.
The clutch plates also seem OK.
However, I workshop manual and the EPC show 4 lined clutch plates (with Innenlamellen) for the K2 clutch, and I have found 5...
Any ideas? This is a late style transmission.









Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 21:23:26
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2009 :  17:35:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is a subject I am very interested in right now. The engine for the 600 is at the machine shop right now, and the transmission is still sitting in the garage. While still in the car, the transmission looked like it was leaking from every possible location that it could possibly leak. I would like very much to pull it apart and reseal it before putting it back in the car.

The problem is that the internals of the automatic transmission is where I have always drawn the line in the past. I'll pull a valve body apart, but that's it.

One of my concerns has been the spring compressors. What is involved in making the 722.3 tool work? Would you post some photos?

Is it realistic to think I can get into this myself, and do it succesfully?

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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bwostosh

USA
485 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2009 :  23:51:02  Show Profile  Visit bwostosh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If it had been apart before, did someone add the extra plate to compensate for some worn parts rather than get new clutch parts,
What are the dimensions of new / old clutch parts?
Do you mic them?

Brian O.
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  00:20:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chris,

I think redoing a transmission is definitely something you could do. As a matter of fact, the K4B 050 transmission is, IMHO, a lot easier to do than a 722.3, since you can get to both sides of the transmission housing. The only special tool needed is the compressor for the clutch springs. I had some rings made to use the 722.3 tool, and after trying it tonight I found out that I need a refinement for the K1 clutch, but it worked great for the K2 clutch.

The manual talks about a tool for removing the piston housing for the B1 & B2 brake bands, but I found out that this tool is not needed. I used some longer bolts and the housing came off easy. Also, the guiding tool for getting the clutch pistons back in is not needed, I used a very cheap guiding tool that is nothing more than a very thing wire in a holder, and it slips the lip of the seal right back in.

Setting the clearances does not seem to be a big problem, specially if you only reseal the tranny and not change any of the bearings, clutches or brake bands. If it was me though, I would replace everything that wears while you are at it.

I have done three 722.3 transmissions with 100% success.

Below a photo show on the compressor story.


The original 722.3 compressor:









The compressor mounted on a 722.3 clutch:





Compressor mounted on 722.3 pack before compression:





and after compression (notice locking ring):





K4B 050 K2 clutch:





K2 clutch:





The 2 adapter rings, bottom left and middle:





Detail of the main adapter ring (needs changed!):





Compressor with adapter rings on K4B 050 K2 clutch:





Detail of other ring, needed because the original tool nut is too small for the K4B 050 clutches:





Detail of main ring:





Before compression:





After compression:





With locking ring removed (this locking ring mounts on the bottom instead of top):





Spring retainer removed:





Springs:





Piston removed:





Problem with adapter ring on K4B 050 K1 clutch: there should be a relief in the ID of the adapter ring, so the spring retainer can go through the ring, so you can remove the locking ring. Stupid, but those things happen. I will see if we can get that done tomorrow.





Edited by - paul-NL on 09/01/2017 09:09:20
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  00:32:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ron,

Here some pics of the bands. I don't think they look too bad. Please let me know what you think.

B2 band:





Detail of B2 band:





Detail of B1 band:





Edited by - paul-NL on 08/31/2017 16:23:45
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  03:09:12  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi,those bands don't look like they have many miles on them. Perhaps they were changed at some time. Closely examine the ends where the pin pushes against them ,that's the bit that breaks off.
That may also explain why there is an extra plate in the clutch. There are 9 different thickness available,you should have the installed height specs in your manual (section 27-0) . There are three different lengths for the band pins too.

The compressor you are using in similar to the factory tool,but the factory is pressed with a press ,which not everyone has.

Chris,if you have the Finny workshop manuals from 1959 onwards,the DB auto trans part covers most of the transmission work ,the 6.3 part is really only a supplement to this.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 17:29:39
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  08:32:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, the workshop manuals from 1959 on are very good, the main difference I see is the assembly/disassembly of the gear train, which is obviously different. The 6.3 supplement covers that, although I found a German version of the 1959 on etc manual that covers the K4B 050 even better.
I am still a little confused with the parts manuals, they show the clutch K3 and not the one-way clutch that is mounted in this transmission.

I will measure both clutch packs today, and publish the results later.
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  10:32:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys,

I have all the regular service manuals, as well as the transmission supplement from 1963 which is about 150 pages. At one time I had the K4B050 supplement when they were still available from MBNA, but that has grown legs sometime over the last 20 years. I know there have been recent posts about where to locate this particular supplement, so I'll have to go chase down one of those.

I agree that once the trans is apart, it is time to renew anything that is questionable. I'm going to give this a lot of consideration before doing anything, but if I decide to jump, I hope you all will be available for advice.

I'm amazed at the broken bearing. I've never seen anything like that before. I can only wonder what in the world would cause something that severe. My first concern would be that the bore that it fits into isn't round anymore.

There is a note in one of these manuals about a change in the number of clutch plates, but it is my memory that this change took place immediately before the 6.3 went into production implying that only the 600 would have actually seen the change in production. All 6.3s would have already had the greater number of plates. I'll see if I can dig this up since it may be relevant to what you are seeing. Which version of the parts book do you have?

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  11:18:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I have all the regular service manuals, as well as the transmission supplement from 1963 which is about 150 pages. At one time I had the K4B050 supplement when they were still available from MBNA, but that has grown legs sometime over the last 20 years. I know there have been recent posts about where to locate this particular supplement, so I'll have to go chase down one of those.


Uhh, okay, I have the K4B050 supplement too. It turned up in a box this past summer. I guess I just got used to the idea that it was gone. I'm going to use my advancing age as an excuse.



Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  14:27:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

After the transmission case is cleaned (soda blasted) I will check the bearing bore for any damage. We will have to make a ring and machine the case if there is damage.

I think you are right about the K4B 050 clutch plate change: that took place at transmission # 1391, and from the start of production of the 6.3, as stated in the Grand 600 manual. So I assume my 600 has the old setup, and the 6.3 has the new one. I have a spare K4B 050 transmission in storage, have to find out what serial number, it might be usable for either the 6.3 or the 600.

I use an off-line EPC from 2001 (the Bell & Howell version) for most of my parts searches, since it is fast. For more up-to-date checking I subscribed to the on-line EPC, which is slow, but sometimes different from the 2001 version. It also shows the parts for my 2003 CL600.
The paper version for the transmission is Edition F, 10146 from 1968. However, that does not cover the K4B 050, but all the drawings are the same as in the electronic versions.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  14:52:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Albert, you've got a number of these transmissions and I've got an extra copy of the K4B-050 transmission parts book (10 153 Ed. A). It seems to me you should have it. I'll contact you off-line.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2009 :  17:10:11  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I thought about the extra clutch as mentioned in the 600 section too but as you say it really only relates to cars built before the 6.3 production. . I think from memory that the case is slightly longer on the later ones?
My only spare trans is the one I broke the band in and I haven't had time to pull it down yet.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 17:30:21
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aplekker

USA
494 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  11:52:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The clutch situation is getting really bizarre. The way I found the clutches in my transmission is completely off from the way it should be according to my manual.
The manual I am using is a German supplement for PKW Typen ab 1968, Baureihe 108-115, from January 1972. The header: Automatische Getriebe K4B 050, Typ 300 SEL/8 6.3

On page 27-10/4 it shows the clutch layout for both clutches:

K1: 6 1 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 2

K2: 6 3 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 4

1 Steel 112 272 02 26 1.3mm
2 Steel 100 272 01 26 2.4mm
3 Steel 112 272 06 26 3.5mm
4 Steel 100 272 00 26 5.5mm
6 Steel 112 272 14 62 0.6mm

5 clutch plate lined 112 272 02 25 2.5mm

That means K1 has 14 elements with a total thickness of 36.8mm, and K2 has 10 elements with a total thickness of 36.1mm.

What I found:

K1:
3.0 Steel P
2.2 Lined
5.5 Steel P
2.3 Lined
5.0 Steel P
2.4 Lined
5.0 Steel F
2.3 Lined
4.5 Steel P
2.4 Lined
3.5 Steel F

K2:
4.5 Steel P
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
6.3 Steel F

Steel F is a steel plate with full teeth on the outside diameter, Steel P has 4 times 3 teeth on the outside diameter, Lined are the clutch plates lined with the friction material.
What we can see in K1 is that most lined clutch plates are worn down from their 2.5mm initial thickness, while in K2 these lined clutch plates are all still 2.5mm.

Also, both K1 and K2 have 11 elements. If you take the full 2.5mm for all clutch plates, K1 ends up being 39mm and K2 37.3mm. That is 2.2mm difference from the spec for K1 and 1.2 mm for K2. That is definitely outside of the tolerance, which is 0.6mm for K1 and 0.4 mm for K2.

What we also see is the in both clutches:
- The first 0.6mm steel plate is missing.
- K1 should have 6 lined plates, I have 5.
- K2 should have 4 lined clutch plates, I have 5
- K1 should have 3.5mm steel plates between the lined plates, I have a variety.
- K2 should have 5.5mm steel plates between the lined plates, I have the 3.5 mm ones.

I thought I might have confused K1 and K2, but that is definitely not the case, I have many pictures on how this came apart, and it is very obvious where each pack came from. The housing and pistons for K1 and K2 are completely different.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the previous rebuilder messed things up pretty bad. The fact that the K1 plates are way more worn down than the K2 ones also might be an indication that things were wrong, since K1 should have had 6 plates.

Any one have any ideas???









1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP

Edited by - paul-NL on 09/01/2017 09:09:51
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Ron B

Australia
11633 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  16:29:03  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Missed one plate so they put in the next clutch pack they were assembling?

I had a look in the tool catalogue and the only special tools needed for assembling a trans ,apart from the clutch assembly tool ) are clamps to press the side covers back on to the pistons. And anyone can make one ,it's very simple.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - paul-NL on 08/29/2017 17:31:12
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