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 Justins 6.3 project with pictures..
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Ron B

Australia
11612 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2010 :  17:47:52  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Re the diff housing. I would try a light skim coat of devcon ,then sand it back down again so the pits are filled. As long as the surface is reasonbly flat (ish) the bearing should remain quiet with regular service.


I don't know why the local audio people still say to install the speakers in the doors. it's the worst place. Imgagine a loose speaker laying on top of a 44 gal drum. . That is what happens when a speaker is mounted to a door. Mercedes had this figured out in the late 1960's and placed speakers in the footwells.





quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section
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mtrei

USA
3740 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2010 :  18:19:15  Show Profile  Visit mtrei's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Art Love

In Queensland, several years ago, the government allowed the use of H rated tyres on cars which came exfactory with higher speed ratings because the maximum speed limit here is 110Kph. It is about the only dispensation allowed on factory specs without Dept of Transport certification.

Finally, he bought new door strikers. He had the original strikers chrome plated and took the new striker rubber centres out and put them in the chromed units.



The 110 limit must get pretty boring if you're crossing the Outback.

The very early W109s came with plated strikers, but this works too.
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2010 :  20:39:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Art,

If I understand the question correctly, I think you are refering to the large (but short) bolt that goes into the front end of the hinge pin. On page 35-10/10 of the service book there is a torque spec. for the "Hex. bolt in connecting bolt" at 12 mkp (~87 ft-lbs). I haven't seen anywhere where the hinge pin is refered to as the "connecting bolt", but the parts book does refer to the hinge pin as a "connecting pin". I think these are one in the same.

I have never understood the extremely tight tolerance on the axial clearance on the hold-down bearing. I keep it in the back of my mind that this may be a "typo", substantiated by the fact that the spacer rings are only available in 0.1mm increments, and since two identical parts are required on each side, that equates to an increment of 0.2mm which would make the axial clearance make a lot more sense if the specified axial clearance were 0.2-0.4mm rather than 0.02-0.04mm. One book lists this as 0.01-0.02mm! I simply cannot come up with any sort of reason why such a tight spec would be necessary.

What is much more important (and not mentioned in the service book) is that the axle tube section under the brake hold-down bearings be round and at full-dimension. This is the cause of the dreaded juddering noise when applying the brakes when moving in reverse.

I realize that the axle tubes have been painted and re-assembled already, but it would sure be worth checking the hold-down bearing seats on the axle tubes to see how far out-of-round they may be. If they are bad (and rust is a good sign they are bad), it would be a lot less trouble to fix them now than after the car is put back together. (I know! I'm reluctant to even bring it up.)

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
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Art Love

Australia
6226 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2010 :  02:58:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike,

It is not only boring, it is downright dangerous because, instead of driving to the conditions which keeps your brain alert, you go to sleep. I don't think there is any doubt that a lot of the major accidents on our country roads are due to drivers going to sleep at the wheel. Even the government has accepted that and have run campaigns "stop and revive to survive" and so on, but that justs takes even longer to do the trip. That is countered by the "better to arrive late than never" slogan. The problem here in Australia is huge distances, very long straight stretches, boring scenery and unrealisticly low speed limits on some of the roads. The 110Kph limit only applies on 4-8 lane motorways (the equivalent of your interstates) and most country roads have a limit of 100Kph. Many states have fixed speed cameras on these roads and often, the car you can see in the remote distance - the only other car for the next 50 miles - is the local copper with his car mounted laser speed detector that works at distances of up to 2 or 3Km, far before you can tell that it is a police car, even if it is marked, which a lot of them aren't. There is no money in increasing the speed limits and a lot in policing them. I have no doubt that the death toll on the major arterial north of Brisbane went down when they increased the limit from 100 to 110Kph. Just that increment increase reduced the number of single vehicle drive off the road accidents.

Ron,

I'm not sure why he has put speakers in the doors. He has lots of different people that I recognize when they are there doing all sorts of different tasks. One of them is doing the electronics like putting LED's into the taillights instead of regular bulbs without changing the housings, the new wiring loom, the electronic ignition and EFI if he goes that way, etc, etc. Not sure if he is doing the stereo as well. Northfield Car Sound are one of Justin's neighbours and they may be involved. They do stuff from what a normal human being would want to those cars where all the pasenger and boot space is taken up by speakers and you can't be within 400 feet of the car with the stereo going if you have any regard for your ear drums. I stick to giving advice on the genuine original M-B bits, jobs I can do without stuffing up, and things that I have the physical strength to manage. I am also the parts ordering officer for the project. Combined with my own projects, that puts Justin and me in among Tom Hanson's top customers.

I'll certainly pass on your advice about the devcon.

Chris,
Thanks for that torque figure.

I was thinking about your suggestion, but not being a mechanic, I could not think how we can check the axle tube bearing surfaces for round. Is there a method in these circumstances? The new bearing shells fit snugly onto the steel. There is certainly no slop. I don't have my Service Manuals here because I have lent them to Justin and they are at the shed. Is there a minimum diameter of the axle tube bearing surface in the Manual that we can check to see if they are under size?

That 0.01-0.02mm tolerance that is in my Service Manual made no sense to me. The picture shows someone with a feeler gauge. I put the new bearing shell on a flat surface to show Justin that you can easilly see daylight between it and the surface because the edge is not flat, having a degree of distortion where the oil groove comes to the edge. I wondered if we were going to have to rub it down on a glass surface but could see no more sense in the tolerance than you. For something that just rotates probably 15-30 degrees on its axis during normal usage and whose shaft is attached at the front by a long vertical bolt, I couldn't see why a small amount of lateral movement at the axle of a few hundreths of a mm would make any difference. But then I am a surgeon, not an engineer. With the existing 2 dot spacers on each side, I could not move the shell sideways at all, so I have ordered 8 new 2 dot spacers and am hoping Tom will respond positively.

The other thing in the Service Manual that I could not understand was the advice to champher the edge of the new bearing shell to avoid cutting the rubber ring. As I see it, the bearing shell seats against the spacer ring and the rubber ring is outside the whole bearing unit. Am I missing something there? Are they talking about the outer steel bearing housing 109 350 00/01 42 if that is replaced with a new one?
Thanks for your help,
Art
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Ron B

Australia
11612 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2010 :  05:43:37  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It's simple enough to check the axle housing out of round where the hold down fits. Imagine a tube ,looking into the diameter. Divide the circle into four segments. Use a micrometer to measure the diameter at the edge on each segment so you get four separate readings taken around the outside of the tube. to get a true indication of total wear, you measure at eight points, four at each end of the tube .
The high reading is the true diameter( assuming it hasn't worn ) ,the low reading is the worn diameter . To find the clearance bolt the hold down halves together with the shells in place . Where the edges of the shells fit together will give a smaller reading than the the position at 90 degrees from this point. This will be as close to the true diameter that you will find. Subtract your low reading from this.
The high reading subtracted from the high reading in the bushes should be close to factory specs .If not there is the only the option of machining the axle tube down to get it round again and machining the hold down halves down to reduce the diameter then boring it round .
What should be done also is mounting the two axle housing halves in a lathe and checking that the tubes are in fact parallel.
If the tubes are bent (very likely because finnies will bend axle tubes) the hold downs will wear out and the wheel bearings will have a hard job of maintaining axle run out within specs. The bearing will be pushed against the tube opposite the direction of the bend and will wear out quickly. Not a good thing at $200 a pop , not too mention the seals will fail soaking the hand brake in oil.


regarding the pivot Pins...

I've just done the roundies diff and I managed to get the clearance specified . The axle will move a lot if the clearance is too great , meaning at the wheel end of the shaft the wheel is moving out of alignment in an arc in direct proportion to the amount of clearance at the pivot point. In the manuals it also says that the correctly set up pivot point is hard to move up and down when initially fitted. If it cannot be moved the spacing washer can be trimmed to suit. I use a linisher to get them flat and true and to get the right clearance. I have collected a few used face washer spacers from other diffs ( finnies and roundies all use the same parts as a 6,3) so i was able to get two 2.3 washers which were still OK.
The ideal is to get as little clearance as possible and use the same size washers on each side.
There is no need for extra clearance as in an engine because there is not the same heat and thus no danger of seizure when the car is driven .
I have noticed that the wear point is mostly the steel tube which runs on the pin and bears against the bronze bush.
The pin (actually a hollow tube) is the same used right across the range from W180 to W109 so there is no danger of never not being able to find one when overhauling a diff.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section

Edited by - Ron B on 03/08/2010 06:04:11
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2010 :  10:37:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't recall ever seeing a spec for the axle tube diameter under the hold-down bearings, but as Ron says, the best check is to determine the maximum existing diameter and the minimum existing diameter. Chances are that you will find the maximum diameter when measuring "front to back" on the tube and the minimum diameter when measuring "top-to bottom", and this is because it is the top of the axle top that wears.

I have to disagree with Ron regarding the prefered solution to address the problem. It is my preferance to have the worn away material replaced by hard-chroming the area (by metal spraying) and then ground back down to the desired dimension. This has several effects. First, the bearing surface is now substantially harder and will wear much more slowly in the future if the car is ever again subjected to inadequate maintenance. Secondly, none of the other associated parts (nylon shells, spacer halves, bearing housing) have to be custom machined to fit this particular axle tube so future maintenance can continue to use "stock" parts.

As Ron suggests, it would be good to assemble the nylon shells and bearing housings so that the inside diameter of this assembly could be measured. In theory, this diameter minus some clearance for the grease would yield an overall maximum outside diameter for the axle tube as a check that the measured maximum O.D. of the tube was truly valid. If the measured maximum O.D. of the tube was significantly smaller than the calculated theoretical value, then some additional work should be done to better determine what the ideal true O.D. of the axle tube should be. It is my recollection that the O.D. of the axle tube at the bearing seat is the same as the rest of the axle tube towards the differential housing, but I don't have a loose axle tube available right now to prove that.

It occurs to me that determining this "ideal" value would be benficial to all. Once known and published, other folks could simply check for this value and therefore avoid the other work to estimate it.

I agree that the comment about chamfering the bearing shell is confusing, and probably misleading. Obviously, the large O-rings used to provide a seal to the assemblies need to sit on chamfered surfaces that are burr free, but the shells are not a factor here.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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pjtigger

United Kingdom
153 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2010 :  16:08:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The spec of the tube diameter is in the BBB (i'm assuming the 2 numbers are max & min)its listed as 65.000/64.981 & the width 64.046/64.000
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Art Love

Australia
6226 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2010 :  23:37:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well we ran the vernier all around those antidive bearings on both ends of the axle and both Justin and I got 65mm in almost every hour of the clock. We didn't get anything under 64.98, so he decided to live with them rather than pull the whole thing apart and hard chrome them.

Chris mentioned that rubber at the front end of the trailing arm that looks like it goes in upside down because of the shape of the centre hole. When I did #1702, I had some tools made. Here are a couple of them. The bigger one is designed to help get that rubber onto the nipple on the bodywork that it goes over. It is next to impossible to get it on without some sort of tool.





Here is how it goes in to expand the rubber. Of course, it is used once the arm is up and ready to attach by applying the base of the cone to the bodywork nipple. I'll try to get a picture when the axle goes onto the car





The old inner seal was still in this axle, so Justin pulled it out with a puller. The new seal is in the bag.









Here is looking into the end of the axle tube. We could not work out what that little slot was for. Nothing seems to engage in it.





Now the new inner seal is going in.





















Gasket on.

















The inner end of the right axle has a groove and snap ring from chassis #4347 that engages the homokinetic joint.





Now the right axle is going in.





























































We installed the rear bellows units.













The cross strut with new rubbers is temporally positioned.





The antidive arms are prepared as are the outer housings.













The axle is gradually getting to a stage of being attached. The second picture is of the axle support tool that I have to assist in the installation process. The plate goes under the diff and locks to it, the jack goes under the plate and the adjustable arms support the axle tubes.









Art

Edited by - Art Love on 03/14/2010 00:09:46
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2010 :  10:06:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm pleasantly surprised that the axle tubes measured out so well. The pitting will just hold more grease.

With the rear axle still out of the car is the time to seat the clip on the inner end of the right axle shaft behind the sliding joint by raising the right axle tuber as far as it will go relative to the differential.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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etmerritt33

USA
1415 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2010 :  14:08:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From the amateur peanut gallery....some beautiful collaboration and outcome of all the work on this segment of a big project!! Getting back to doing some minor hands on work on my 6.9 and new to me euro 280E and pictures just can't convey the amount of effort that goes into projects like this. Wish I had the means and ability to tackle something like this but I'm learning to accept my limitations. Keep up the great work, guys!!!
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Ron B

Australia
11612 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2010 :  16:30:37  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The axle rack is a beauty,where did that come from?
I made my own from scrap but that looks adjustable so it will fit pontons too.



quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section
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Art Love

Australia
6226 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2010 :  21:39:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the comments.

Chris, I have read what you have said on all occasions and you will note that in the pictures where the right axle is initially going in, we have the axle tube lifted to its maximum. We didn't feel any discernable "click" or anything else. We dropped it back down when it was fully seated. Should we have felt anything? Also, have you any idea what that small cutout in the axle tube if for?

Ron,

Karl, the painter made it. He makes all sorts of support frames for all sorts of jobs as he goes along. He made the support frames for the cars as well so he can move them about in the shop without their wheels. The rear axle support is looking tatty after being in the garage for ages. He made nice leather wraps for the axle tube holders that are on the bench somewhere that I need to find. Here it is with the rear axle off #1702 back in the 90's.





This is a general frame he made with the 190SL rear axle on it back in the 1980's at about the same stage as Justin's axle.





Here we are using the frame. Karl is on the end of the jack at the back of the car. I'm upside down in the boot screwing in the centre mount. The axle is held level with just the centre jack. So it will work on the ponton.





Here are some more examples.

















A lot of them he keeps and reuses on other cars, but the M-B specific ones come home with me.













Those frames use the front and rear axle mounting points and the front bumper bracket and are pretty robust. The height allowed me to work easilly under the car as well as on or in it. I can recommend them to anyone doing this sort of restoration. Anyone interested will find a lot more photos in the restoration articles on #1702 in the Lode Star section of the Members Only part of this website.
Art

Edited by - Art Love on 03/14/2010 21:41:33
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Chris Johnson

USA
3751 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2010 :  21:57:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Art,

I made that comment for others that may read this in the future. I know you guys have this stuff figured out.

I have always installed the axle with the tubes straight out and then raised the right axle tube to engage the clip. I cannot feel anything when doing it this way, but that isn't surprising. Once (the last time I did a right-rear bearing) I did take a fully disassembled right axle (no wheel bearing) and slid it into the sliding joint to see if I could feel the engagement. I could not. As it turns out, I also couldn't feel the disengagement and that bothered me as there should be a distinct point in the outward movement where the clip contracts to fit through the inner sleeve. It turns out the clip wasn't expanding properly (??). A new clip fixed the problem.



Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org
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Ron B

Australia
11612 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2010 :  16:34:43  Show Profile  Visit Ron B's Homepage  Reply with Quote
How long ago did you do the 190 SL? ,that looks like a younger fitter Art Love bending into the back with flares too...
Did you have difficulty getting the nut to go on the diff pivot? I understand that the job is difficult with a new ponton rubber.


quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section
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Art Love

Australia
6226 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2010 :  07:21:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's about 20 years ago. I bought the car in 1986 for Cheryll's 40th birthday present and the "rebuild" was finished in 1992. If I could get that nut on, anyone could.
Art
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